so per usual we asked you why are you awake? our producer, as always, with the answers. john? >> okay, debbie writes, i'm impressed. if you can host "way too early" with no sleep by being harassed by joe and nika, can you do anything. >> it was a little disconcerting when he took finger. other than that, it went pretty well. what else? >> william who writes, what

teeth-whitening product does louis use? it really works. >> good question. get that one all the time. it's actually cgi. john, thank you for those. "morning joe" begins right now. just recently republicans in congress said they'd never agree to raise tax rates on the wealthiest americans. we've now raised those rates permanently, making our tax code more progressive than it's been in decades. obviously, there's still more to do when it comes to reducing our debt. and i'm willing to do more as long as we do it in a balanced way that doesn't put all the burden on seniors or students or middle-class families. but also asks the wealthiest americans to contribute and pay their fair share. >> good morning. it's thursday, january 3rd. welcome to "morning joe." with us on set, we've got the host of cnbc's "mad money," jim cramer and also msnbc political

analyst, john heilemann. i thought we were going to wait longer before he came back. alex, next time talk to me first. msnbc and "time" magazine senior political analyst, mark halperin, who does "way too early" very well. >> does it very well. >> under adverse conditions. >> well, mr. heilmann, why didn't you do "way too early"? >> right. i don't think so. >> is it too early? >> yeah. >> seriously. >> 30 minutes. >> the usual thing. >> the usual thing. >> yeah. >> we can't talk about that, can we? >> no. >> okay. well, i'm going to get to the news which is going to start. >> is this chris christie? >> no, we're going to do that later. >> peter king? >> no, seriously? >> why aren't we starting there? >> i actually tried to bring it up several times yesterday, but apparently you need lawmakers ranting and just railing against congress in order to cover it. i was horrified yesterday. >> i thought chris christie gave -- wow! >> oh, now you're horrified because chris christie's horrified.

great. we'll get there. but first, president obama has signed into law -- >> lit off bottle rockets and smoke bombs. >> i want to hear from grover norquist because this logic is fantastic. passed by congress that raises taxes for the higher earners, extends tax cuts for many americans. the president reviewed a copy of the bill while vacationing in hawaii before directing it to be signed via auto pen. that's the signature machine that the presidents sometimes use while away from washington, far from a bipartisan public signing ceremony. look at this. >> it was special. he wanted to capture it. it was special. >> back at the capitol -- >> in wisconsin they were thinking about signing civil rights legislation with his hands, then decided use the auto pen. looks better for the history books. >> on the jetsons. >> there are several major issues -- >> rosie, by the way. >> -- awaiting the president's return including the impending

fight over the debt ceiling. >> it's going to be ugly. >> meanwhile, grover norquist sat down with andrea mitchell yesterday where he insisted that republicans who backed the fiscal cliff deal did not, in fact, vote to increase taxes. >> no republican voted for a tax increase. what happened was obama had the damacles over the heads of the american people over the next decade that would happen automatically. republicans are quite clear, they want the tax cuts extended for everyone. the president insisted on taking them away from some people. that will hurt the economy. he got his tax increase, but he can't claim republican fingerprints on his tax increases. >> well, wait a second. i mean, we're not living in the alice in wonderland world here. there is a tax increase for wealthier americans. it's literally a tax increase. >> well -- >> rates are up. >> what happened yesterday was that all the tack rates went up, and then the republicans and the congress together took them down

for some people, not for everybody. >> speaker john boehner, meanwhile -- >> i've got to stop there. come on. >> fine. >> come on, what world does he live in? >> i don't know. someone tell me. >> john -- >> what's the deal? >> -- i've always liked grover, you know. >> how do you believe someone like that? it is what it is when he wants it to be what it is. and then when it isn't, then he changes. >> they got rolled. republicans wouldn't vote to raise taxes. >> cramer, come on. >> to the million-dollar level. they got rolled and grover got rolled. >> they didn't just get rolled -- >> they got destroyed. >> the whole fundamental premise of grover norquist's ideological and political life was undermined and has collapsed at his feet. not very many people when that happens to them say, look, the last 20 years of my life in rubble at my toes. they figure out some way to explain why, in fact, the sand castle still hasn't fallen apart. but it's pretty obvious what the reality is. >> look, i know i bumped into

you guys at the ritz-carlton and you said this is the end, grover, he's finished. i thought grover was masterful. you got to go over the cliff. the rates went up, be able to claim for his people that they didn't do things wrong. now he will not launch tea party assaults in thigh pese primarie. >> what? >> that's right. he won't. that's what he was threatening. tea party 2. >> i think he made the best of it. >> he did make the best of it. >> thank you. that's all i'm saying. i liked it and i thought it was funny. >> funny? >> the republican party, i think most conservatives thought it was a devastating day for the conservative movement. charles krauthammer -- and i agreed -- he called it a rout immediately, said it was just devastating blow for the conservative movement. >> it seems like a more honest characterization of what happened. >> yeah, there's no way to spin this other than a huge loss. >> well, there's actually something simpler which is just to say republicans voted to

raise taxes. >> yes, they did. >> whatever you want to say, whatever the meaning of that is for the conservative movement, you can't pretend like they didn't pretend to raise taxes. they voted to raise taxes. >> by the way, anybody that says that they didn't is ignoring the reality that we talked about yesterday, and that is barack obama wanted the bush tax cuts eliminated across the board less than any political figure in washington, d.c. republicans kind of had the attitude, all right, you know what? let them all -- we'll let them all go by, and we'll just sit there and stare. and we'll wait it out. obama and obama's people said from the beginning -- in fact, they said going back two years that the economy could not survive the ending of the bush tax cuts. david axelrod told us that back in 2010. they know that keeping 98% of those tax cuts in place are critical to keep this small recovery going. so republicans that buckled and

raised taxes just didn't have the guts to stare down the president and say no, we're not going to do it your way. we're going to do it our way. >> raising taxes on the wealthy has been a huge winning issue for democrats for a long time. republicans did buckle to that. grover is associated with tax increases and the pledge, he also talks a lot about spending. and for conservatives now who want to move on from this pr problem for them, they've got to start talking about spending. >> a disaster. >> they have to say, what do they want to cut? and i think grover and john boehner and other -- paul ryan and other conservatives should now say you know what? we keep saying the problem is spending. that's what they should move on to. they should have the courage of their convictions and be willing to lose their jobs to propose huge spending cuts if that's what they want. >> exactly. exactly. >> the problem is, mika, the problem is not the tax increase, even though, you know, i hated the tax increase, the problem is what they got for the tax increase, which is nothing. if you're going to vote to raise taxes for the first time in 20 years, and you know that's the bloody flag that the president of the united states wants to

wave to his left-wing base -- >> this is it. absolutely. zr >> -- you give everything you can. remember those nimrods that were standing up on the stage and were giving the 10-1 option, would you raise $1 in taxes for $10 in spending cuts? >> those nimrods, by which you mean all of the republican presidential candidates, those nimrods. >> those nimrods. i was on my couch and i was, like, yes, yes, yes. because we all know ronald reagan was promised 3-1. he never got it. george w. bush was promised 2-1. he never got it. if you could get 10-1, that would -- >> that would be a rout. >> i was going to say, that would be a ronald reagan dream. that would be a ron paul dream. >> right. >> you know what the ratio was yesterday? >> hmm? >> not computable. >> no, it was computable. i saw it somewhere. 1-43. $1 in spending cuts for every $43 in tax increases.

you don't take the 10-1 but 1-43, an absolute disaster, an absolute, absolute failure in leadership on the republican party's side, on all sides. this is a party without any viable leadership. >> okay. looking now practically at what happened, the markets responded in a way that showed that at least some certainty or at least something is a good thing. >> definitely. we'll sell off a little bit here, but there were a lot of people saying i've got to sell stocks because capital gains will go up big. i've bot to sell stocks because the dividend rate will go up big. there are no longer bond equivalents. and there's also a sense that maybe we can get business formation because we have some understanding of what the tax code is. but i think people were shocked that there were no spending cuts. i also don't know if the republicans really want spending cuts. >> well, that's the problem. >> i agree with that. i think that they have this sort of theme that they gnaw away at

because it's the right thing. but they're scared to do it. >> and they know that once you start being specific about these cuts, they're going to be unpopular. that's why i say now's the time. this is their thing. now's the time. what matters is spending cuts. >> no, it's not, because they didn't do it. what are they? >> the white house has got to name them first. >> let's look at the unhappy facts. i was talking to somebody yesterday on the air about the fact that the constitution says, congress has the checkbook. the house of representatives specifically has the checkbook. it's in article i. so since republicans in the house of representatives have had the checkbook in 2000, what's happened? well, we had $155 billion surplus in 2001. now we're $1.5 trillion in debt. we've been running trillion-dollar deficits for the past four years. yes, nancy pelosi was speaker from 2007 to the beginning of 2011, but republicans have been in charge year after year after year after year with $1 trillion

deficit. they point to barack obama. i will tell you, i mean, in the '90s, we didn't blame bill clinton. we took him on. we're, like, okay, we've got the checkbo checkbook. if there are deficits, it's our fault. that was our attitude. if we're running deficits, it's not bill clinton's fault. we've got the checkbook. and by the way, we ran newt gingrich out of town because he didn't think that way. and so any republican that's getting sworn in today and they're all getting sworn in today, you've got the checkbook, okay? you've done a miserable job with the checkbook over the past 12 years. and you've got nobody to blame but yourself. if you fail this time, you really don't belong in the majority in the house of representatives. in fact, your party has no purpose anymore because you're a party of higher taxes now. and if you're a party of bigger spending for another two years, then, you know, your party is

going to go up in smoke. think about it. sequestration. we've got a chance to cut $110 billion. defense -- the pentagon is so bloated. you can't -- you can't -- jim cramer, you can't even audit the pentagon. dave walker told us that. it is so bloated. and yet they can't find $100 billion in cuts? >> we need the divisions in japan because that war is still on. we need the divisions in germany -- no, we won those wars. >> we're wasting $2 billion a week in afghanistan. they can't cut that? $3 billion a week. >> they can't say it. >> medicare. they won't ever talk about cutting medicare. >> can we pay more for part "b," or is that too difficult to talk about? it's not worth it? part "b" is a great break. why can't we let merck and pfizer get away with this? it should be a bargain. no, we write blank checks because we hear they're going to move to france.

i've got news for you. it doesn't help to you move to france. >> guess what happened. the president's negotiating on obamacare. the first thing he does is he calls in big pharma and cuts a deal with them and then brings in the hospitals and cuts a deal with them. so their genius idea for fixing medicare and medicaid is take more money from the doctors' pockets. guess what? the doctors opt out and medicare soon becomes medicaid for senior citizens. it's so shortsighted and stupid, but nobody's got the guts. nobody's got the guts to go after medicare to save medicare, to go after social security, to save social security. social security is not as bad as medicare. and with medicaid, it's a disaster. it's a disaster. and you pity the poor people that have to depend on medicaid because so often the service is substandard. >> well, these are all -- every one of these things, whether it's raising taxes or cutting big middle-class entitlements, these are unpopular things to

do. they're big things that affect large parts of the population, right? >> they happen to also be the only things that matter as long as long-term debt relief. >> this is where the logic of the grand bargain always made in the abstract always made the most sense because republicans, you know, could -- it was all going to be unpopular. so let's take hard votes that cost your side on taxes, that cost our side on entitlements. we can all get together and hold hands and go off this cliff together. republicans now think they have more leverage on the spending stuff. but if they really want to be serious, they're going to be now the -- they've now ceded on the tax issue, and now they've got to be the party that puts forward and owns all this stuff that, as you said rightly, they've never shown any real guts for cutting before. >> right. >> and they now have to be the owners of it. because the president's going to be saying, hey -- >> they'll never be the owners of it. they're excuse not to be the owners of it will be that speaker boehner now says he won't meet one on one with the

president. it's never going to happen which is exactly what they want. >> which always made sense to do it in the context of the big grand bargain. >> and the problem also, the republicans aren't going to come forward to try to save medicare and the u.s. economy in the process because they think the democrats, if the president -- >> they really got rolled. zroo -- >> -- if the president doesn't have the courage to step forward with medicare and medicaid, then the republicans aren't going to come forward and let the democrats demagogue them. look, paul ryan puts forward a budget that talks about medicare. they spend the next two years bashing him, and they just never put forward a budget. >> but paul ryan's going to have to give up -- while obama's in office -- ryan has to give up his dream of changing the nature of the program. >> you can't change the nature of the program. >> he'll have to, in that context, say how do we save money and change the program? >> you can't change the nature of the program. it's impossible. >> i'll give you the chris

christie story now because we have three minutes. >> go. >> the new congress that swears in today will have another issue to deal with in the coming days. hurricane sandy relief. house speaker john boehner now says he will put $60 billion worth of disaster relief bills up for vote starting on friday. >> are we paying for it? >> uh-huh. >> good. >> it comes after he put off tuesday night's expected vote triggering widespread outrage from many politicians including fellow republicans who represent some of the hardest-hit states. >> we cannot believe that this cruel knife in the back was delivered to our region. >> i think it's inexcusable that we did not have this vote. >> the federal government doesn't have a role in this? absurd! absolutely absurd! we demand nothing less than we have given the rest of the country. an emergency and disaster means emergency and disaster. >> we've been devastated. and i would hope that the speaker will bring this to the floor as quickly as possible. >> by the way, mika, just a

little background, guys like frank, chris smith, they're soft-spoken, good, decent men. when you hear them go to the floor like that -- and by the way, peter, he just yells, but he's also a great guy -- but when they go to the floor like that, you can tell -- >> something bad has happened. >> -- they're speaking for hurt constituents. they've seen the horrors that their constituents have been living through. and i've known frank since '94. i don't think i've ever heard him raise his voice. >> do we need to review what happened? >> yeah, i think we do. you know, they were all chasing john boehner around to make sure this relief got put into place. and boehner kept saying, don't talk to me now. don't talk to me now. wait till after the fiscal cliff deal is done. i'm worried about that. then we'll take it up after that. chris christie, we have the chris christie press conference where he promised chris that, you know, pick up the phone. you call and lobby the members

and i'll take care of it. and then he got his vote. shut down the house. and that was it. everybody feels like john boehner did not tell them the truth. >> so here's chris christie yesterday as well. >> there's only one group to blame for the continued suffering of these innocent victims. the house majority and their speaker, john boehner. we respond to innocent victims of natural disasters not as republicans or democrats but as americans. or at least we did until last night. last night the house of representatives failed. that most basic test of public service. and they did so with callous indifference to the suffering of the people of my state. i called the speaker four times last night after 11:20, and he did not take my calls. on a political chess board of internal palace intrigue politics, our people were played

last night as a pawn. and that's why people hate washington, d.c. that's why they hate this politics. last night it was my party responsible. both parties can take plenty of responsibility over time, but last night, my party was responsible for this. new jerseyians and new yorkers are tired of being treated like second-class citizens. 66 days and counting, shame on you. shame on congress. this used to be something that was not political. you know, disaster relief was something that you didn't play games with. but now in this current atmosphere, everything is the subject of one-offsmanship. everything is a possibility, a potential piece of bait for the political game. and it's just -- it is why the american people hate congress. >> wow. that was amazing. >> governor christie pointed

out, it's been 66 days since hurricane sandy struck. by comparison, in 2005, it took congress only ten days to get a $52 billion katrina relief package to president george w. bush's desk. >> wow, that's an amazing press conference, mika, wasn't it? >> yeah, it was. to me, it was just absolutely ludicrous that these people were left waiting even another second. i don't understand it. so i don't blame him. >> i don't either. >> it's obviously an outrage on the substance. and i don't mean in any way to denigrate chris christie's obviously heartfelt views about this, but man, as a political matter, john boehner's christmas present to chris christie is this thing. >> oh, my gosh. >> every moment, joe, you were just saying when we were off air, you know, every moment that christie was speaking, his approval rating was going up in new jersey a point every 60 seconds. >> by the way, he started at 72%. >> yes.

there's not much further for him to go. and nationally, again, you know, chris christie, 2016, it's not a bad place to be to be in opposition to a congressional republican party. i'm saying even within the republican party. >> right. >> a congressional republican party that is crumbling. >> 9%. >> crumbling in the eyes of the public in general and even in the eyes of the conservative base for the reasons we've been talking about. >> very early on, mark halperin, in september, early september coming out of the convention, i said, this is, you know, big trouble for mitt romney. i was just saying, nobody else had said it. i could just tell. he was in big trouble. and some other people followed after that. i remember in 2005 telling a friend, don't run for congress in 2006. it's going to be a bad year for republicans. he laughed. he goes, it's a little early, isn't it? i said no. don't run. he didn't listen to me. he got 31%. i will tell you, the seeds are

being planted right now for the destruction of the house republican majority. they're being planted before -- >> we haven't even talked about guns. >> we haven't even talked about sandy hook. we haven't talked about -- >> think about that. >> -- being wrapped as the party of wayne lapierre instead of the party of ronald reagan. the extremism that is going to be wrapped around this party. they start -- the men and women being sworn in today start behind the eight ball, they are already on their way to making nancy pelosi the next speaker of the house. they'd better -- just like i said with romney in september, they'd better turn this ship around quickly, or we're going to have a democratic monopoly in washington, d.c., on january the 4th, 2015. >> as we say in tv, joe, that's exactly right, joe. i mean, it's possible -- >> joe, you're absolutely right. >> it's possible they can turn

it around, but if you're talking about leadership within congress or a governor or someone who's thinking of running for president in 2016, it is easy politically to kick the republican congress, easy shots like chris christie took, but there's also a substantive case to make. and you can elevate yourself high sky if you're jindal or christie or jeb bush not taking a gratuitous shot but saying here's what's wrong with my party now. >> your column "crazy doesn't win," but there's still these elements of crazy. sorry. >> i interviewed this fellow scott garrity from cnbc. i said what are you going to do about sandy? accountability issue. this is a jersey congressman, accountability issue. accountability? i have friends whose houses are now a mile below where they were, destroyed on a river. you're talking about accountability. he said yes, before that, we need accountability. and i'm thinking, will you please fly over long beach island, joker?

sorry, i didn't even joker. i meant congressional joker. >> yeah. and you're a jersey guy, right? >> yes, i am. how many of my friends are down there. they're looking for their houses. they hope to find their houses. i have friends in the business of demolition. and the national guard guys from louisiana were making it so you could only have one truck at a time because they were so afraid -- there were no roads. that's called infrastructure. that's not even -- that's not second homes. it's infrastructure to get to first homes for people who aren't that rich and don't need fema. they need rebuild. >> you know, a lot of times, mika, we talk about what politicians do wrong. and unfortunately so many politicians do things wrong. let's talk about a politician who has done everything right. chris christie comes to this show. he's got a 32% approval rating after he's sworn in as governor because he's going after the teachers unions, to try to make them more accountable to teaching children, to make it about chirp instead of jobs.

we ask him off the air, what are you going to do? he goes, i don't care. i'm going to keep doing what's right. and if i'm one-term governor, i don't care. and we know chris. he meant it. he really didn't care. he took them on. he won. he won so much that they now are coming to him, and they're reforming schools in newark together. he did the right thing on the budget. he became good friends with the democrats that run the senate. >> yeah. >> he was worried -- >> he did the right thing on sandy. >> he's worried that pensions won't pay off. isn't he worried about medicare not paying off? social security not paying off? >> he's also worried, mika, about his residence. so when president obama comes to help, he goes there and welcomes him. i mean, this guy does the right thing, and he's got an approval rating in the mid-70s because of it. >> and he doesn't make it look difficult -- >> it's not. >> -- for some members of the republican party it's hard to do the right thing. coming up, we'll bring in

republican congressman peter king. "new york times" columnist gail collins. and the creator of "law & order," dick wolf will be here to discuss his debut novel. >> maybe he'll give some money to us. i'd like some money. >> sure. up next, mike allen with the "politico playbook." first, bill karins with a check on the forecast. bill. >> mika, i'll throw my 10 cents in. even hurricane ike, it only took congress two weeks after that. >> there you go. >> a lot of other precedents, too. let's take a look as you head out the door. new england, coldest morning in two years in some cases. we're in the negative numbers. it's frigid to say the least. minus 15 windchill from albany northward. some areas of maine have a windchill this morning as low as minus 23. boston's logan airport, minus 8. here's the question. is this going to end up being the coldest week of winter? i mean, you could almost argue that this is easily the coldest week we've seen since last year.

it doesn't look like there's more cold air coming. from the rockies through new england, this may be it. this may be one of the coldest mornings we have for a while. new england, you're going to struggle today after a very cold start. only in the 20s for a high. even the big cities in the suburban areas of d.c., baltimore, all the way up through philadelphia, only in the 30s. the southeast, a little rain this morning for you down there in south georgia. also alabama. but otherwise it's a very easy traffic day across the country. besides the cold, it's clear and dry. you're watching "morning joe." we're brewed by starbucks. meet the 5-passenger ford c-max hybrid. when you're carrying a lot of weight, c-max has a nice little trait, you see, c-max helps you load your freight, with its foot-activated lift gate. but that's not all you'll see, cause c-max also beats prius v,

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vein in her head kept her hospitalized for four days. secretary clinton left the new york city hospital last night where she's been recovering since sunday. clinton's medical team says she is making progress on all fronts and expects her to make a full recovery as she continues to rest and work from home. >> that's great news. >> halperin. >> all our best to the clintons. parade of papers, "minneapolis star tribune," the death toll in syria has now topped 60,000 people since the outbreak of their civil war. on wednesday alone, close to 100 people were killed around the capital of damascus in air raids including 32 people who died near a gas station. >> let's go to "politico." with us now, chief white house correspondent for "politico," mike allen here with the "morning playbook." new tax tactics top the "playbook" this morning. explain, mike. >> well, that's right, mika. we have some intel on the next cliff, the negotiations over the debt ceiling. democrats admit to our reporters, and we have --

politico has a squad of reporters, they talked to the committee chairman, and they say that they are done raising rates on the upper income. the wealthiest taxpayers are done having to pay more rates, but they will get hit through changes in deductions and other changes in the tax code. so democrats moving away from raising rates and looking at other ways to get revenue. now, what republicans say is, we will play ball on cutting loopholes, cutting deductions if it's part of a broad overhaul of the tax code, a big tax reform, a big gucci gulch throwdown. we're not going to do it piecemeal in the negotiations over the debt ceiling. >> all right. >> jim cramer? so the rich won't be soaked. >> that sounds fantastic. >> i looked at the tables yesterday. it's funny because on "squawk on the street," we were talking, you're never supposed to say

wow, here's how much i'm hit because then it sounds like you're bragging about how many you make. i checked it out. i was in the 48% bracket going in yesterday. >> you're talking about on all levels. >> yeah. now i'm playing till september? i mean, how long do i get to play for the government before i get to play for cramer? >> the thing is, if you're in the state of florida, low taxes where i'm from. and your tax rate goes up 4.5%, and you make a good bit of money. you know, so your rates are low 40s. but if you're in jersey, if you're in connecticut, new york, illinois, california -- >> confiscatory. >> my property taxes are higher than my mortgage. >> this really matters. >> talk to chris christie. >> that's really crazy. >> paying over 50% of your income to all levels of the government. >> i mean, it's kind of -- look, i don't want to complain because we had a good ride.

>> nobody's complaining. it does beg the question, should any americans pay more than half of everything they make to government? >> that's a good question. >> that question has currently been answered. >> get used to it. >> it has. and you know what the sad thing is, it only funds this tax increase, it will fund five days of government. >> there's some liberal thinking currently, liberal economists who are floating the notion that you could raise marginal rates at the top end to 70, 71%. without hurting economic growth. i'm just saying that argument's out there. >> i'm going to choke you if you keep that argument. >> i'll tell you something, talking about how much the taxes are going to hurt you, it doesn't sound like you're bragging about how much you make, it just sounds like whining. just to be clear. >> i don't want to talk about it, but i know what it's going to be. >> go live in scandinavia. >> cramer wanted some more fisticuffs. >> i like you, though, that's the problem. >> he wants to choke me.

>> mike allen, what are you watching on tv right now? "downton abbey"? >> of course. >> are you excited about the new season? >> of course. and of course the bcs title game is what everybody's waiting for. what's your spread? >> the spread's been around 9.5. the s.e.c. has not performed up to snuff. florida lost last night to louisville. i was shocked by that. >> basketball. >> the a.c.c. beat clemson beat lsu. i'll tell you what. that 9.5 points is looking more like a 5 or 6-point game to me, tops. the s.e.c. is not the conference it was -- >> there are now two underperforming s.e.c.s. before i always looked to it for integrity, the conference. now the government s.e.c. bad and this football conference bad. >> so you know what? the joe line right now is notre dame plus 5. >> what? >> really? >> what? >> no, i'm saying plus 5 as far

as they're underdogs. give them 5 points. i'm sorry for talking in vegas short la shorthand. >> mike allen, thank you. sports is next. >> happy 113th congress. >> yes! yes! >> right, exactly. we'll be right back. [ female announcer ] ready to mix things up with lean cuisine? try our entrees, snacks and new salads. salmon with basil, garlic chicken spring rolls, and now salads, like asian-style chicken. enjoy over 130 tasty varieties, anytime. lean cuisine. be culinary chic.

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our little sports now, we go to the videotape, college football's bowl season rolled on last night. florida and louisville in the sugar bowl. first play, gators opening drive, jeff driscoll throws a pass, picked off. floyd goes all the way, the pick six into the end zone. cardinals have an early lead. >> this is their only touchdown? >> early lead. fourth quarter, gators in the red zone, trying to get back in it. driscoll throws, again picked. driscoll coming into the game had three interceptions all year, two in this game alone. two minutes to go. >> this is going to work out well. >> try an on-side kick, fails. louisville picks it up. they go on to win, the cardinals, 33-23. sugar bowl history. >> stunning. >> stunning. sugar bowl history made. >> i'm serious, it's stunning that florida, 11-0, loses. lsu, 11-0, loses. stunning. >> stunning. all of this, of course, just a

prelude to monday night's big national championship game. alabama crimson tide/notre dame fighting irish. they arrived yesterday? south florida ahead of monday's bcs matchup. nick saban homecoming. homecoming in florida. of course, he coached the dolphins, 2005 and 2006 before he went to real major league football back in alabama for the crimson tide. alabama trying to win the third national championship in just four years. notre dame back when we had notre dame football on sunday mornings, hasn't won a national title since 1988. >> you know it's going to be a great game, but i tell you what. any alabama players who have been told that they're going to have a free ride, all they need to do is look at 11-1 florida who thought they were going to stomp louisville last night. look what happened to them. look what happened to lsu. >> on any given monday. >> on any given monday. 50 days after the last game you play. with the whole country watching. i think they're going to say

this is going to be the most-watched college football game ever. i tell you what. lsu -- i mean, notre dame. >> well coached. >> notre dame's well coached, and they could win this game. >> what do they call alabama, joe? >> well, they've got a name for the winners of the world. i want a name when i lose, they call alabama the crimson tide. >> what do they call cramer? >> deacon blues. >> i'm listening to lynyrd skynyrd. i covered the plane crash that ended lynyrd skynyrd. >> and the buddy holly thing was yours, too? >> little-known fact. he was a big bopper fan. all he did was say, isn't the snow of iowa, the big bopper is dead. he missed the lead. suddenly, she does something unexpected

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a live look at capitol hill. >> a beautiful look at capitol

hill. we just found out that jim cramer lived in tallahassee during the ted bundy years. >> he was at big daddy's at the same time i was which was a fantastic club that gave you a nickel drink at 7:00 every half hour. >> and just think, you guys decided to go two different directions. >> i'd say so. he wore a heavy wool sweater when it was 90 degrees. >> you're creeping me out. >> joining us on set for the "must-read opinion pages," is" new york times'" columnist gail collins. you write, "looking forward, right now you are probably asking yourself: will the new congress being sworn in this week work any better than the last one? there's always a chance because, you know, it's new. also, the bar is low, since some people believe the departing 112th congress was the worst in history." anyone disagree with that? >> no. >> "because of its stupendous lack of productivity and a favorability rating that once polled lower than the idea of a communist takeover of america. our outgoing lawmakers did

retrieve us from that fiscal cliff although they were the ones who pushed us off in the first place, and they left the new congress facing a debt chasm." am i saying that right? "a sequestration void and a government-stoppage bottomless pit." yeah, they did create the very crisis. >> we're going to have a great several months here. bungee jumping, back up, back up. >> seriously, it's like they drank a keg of beer and then vomited. that's what they did. seriously. that was basically -- >> you could have put that in your column, too. >> i could have. >> a missed opportunity. simpson-bowles said the tax bill was a missed opportunity. your column yesterday. yet another. missed opportunity. >> what is the hope with the new congress? are there any glimmers of hope with some of the new ones being sworn in? >> it's basically the same place. i don't think you can say it's been transformed. some of the really outrageous people are gone which maybe will make it a little calmer, but i don't know. it's the same dynamic that's

going to happen. >> who are you thinking of there, gail? >> pardon? >> who are you thinking of? >> name names. >> we'll miss joe walsh. >> allen west. >> allen west. >> can we cue up "the way we were" while she's talking about the ones who are departing? >> the sadness? >> but it's the laughter. we'll remember. >> remember. >> didn't we get allen greyson back? >> yes, you're right. >> greyson goes doubt one door in florida and crazy comes back in the other. >> it's always florida. >> it's florida, it's my state. >> florida is the new texas. >> we traded allen west for allen greyson. and let me just say, a big loss for allens of all political stripe. it is stunning, though. you look at some of these polls, and i remember about a month or two ago seeing a poll that -- seeing that hugo chavez had a 9% approval rating. and the united states congress here had a 9% approval rating. >> and they once said how do you feel about america going communist? and it got better ratings than

congress did. >> did it really? >> yeah. >> wow! >> twice as bad as nixon during watergate. >> you know what? maybe allen west was right when he said 78 to 81 members of the democratic party were communist. >> and they would like it better if they were. >> i thought it was 57. 57 heinz flavors. manchurian candidate. >> we look forward to these next couple rounds, right? just focus on this one thing, on the debt ceiling debate, right? republicans are going to -- they think that the debt ceiling is their lempverage going towards e spending stuff. the president has, what, a 58% approval rating right now? the congressional republicans, the congress in general has a 9% approval rating. so when president obama says i will not negotiate over raising the debt ceiling and the congressional republicans say this is going to be our leverage, who do you think wins that pifight? >> so here's the problem. we had the fiscal cliff, and everybody said the president had the leverage. the president didn't have the leverage. that's the crazy thing.

he never had the leverage. that's why i was saying all along, they should just stare him down because everybody assumed the president didn't really care about the bush tax cuts. he cared desperately about getting 98% of them through because he knew he was going to have a double-dip recession from which he would never recover through his term. republicans could have stared him down and won this fight, which is that's why it drives you so crazy the way they ended it. what happens after the day after you don't raise the debt ceiling, the markets, they melt down. >> yeah. >> your phones start ringing. the business owners from your hometown start calling you. all those guys on "k" street and the women that gave you the big checks, they start calling you. the people that employ 4,000 people in your district start calling you. your mother starts calling you. says, i just -- well, my mother, she calls me all the time. stop calling me, okay? i am not a marxist, okay?

i promise. >> mary jo can call anybody she wants. >> no one has made me sign a marxist document. >> everything's going to be okay. >> but everybody calls you. and gail, the pressure is going to be so immense. on these republicans. and then they back down and they look even worse. >> this doesn't seem like the fight you want to have. you don't want to have a fight over whether or not we should pay our bills. you want to have the fight over your spending thing. wait till the spending thing comes up. then have a fight about how much money you're going to spend, whether you're going to cut the military, whether you're not. but you don't have a fight over whether or not you're going to pay the debt, whether you're going to pay your bills, whether you're going to ruin your credit rating. it's a stupid, dumb fight. and i think the president wins that one. >> i don't think republicans really want to cut spending. >> no. >> i don't. >> i've got to say, if republicans lash themselves to the mast of using the debt ceiling again as a cudgle

against the president -- >> that really feels good. >> that does. sort of a dicaprio-type figure, isn't he? >> in his own special way. >> in otherwise own special way. what word did you use? if republicans do what? >> cudgle. use it as a cudgle against the president. >> it's almost like chasm. >> i think so. something after the chasm, there will be a cudgle. >> all right. gail collins. >> i'm not done with gail yet. >> the sting, right? >> that was a sting. sort of the sign, okay? use it in your next column. anyway, so it's a losing proposition for the republicans. so what do the republicans do, gail collins? because i know every republican that's being sworn in right now -- >> they want to know what you have to say. >> -- what does "new york times" editorial writer gail collins have to say? >> they're always calling me asking me that, when your mother

is calling. they always ask. >> gail, what should we do? >> i'd say the spending argument, pay off the debt and then start fighting about the spending because you've got the sequestration coming up right after that. and fight about how much to cut then. don't fight about paying the bills. >> a couple more questions for you, gail. how was your new year's eve? >> excellent. sleeping. very good. >> that's fantastic. wept to sleep early in >> went to sleep early. >> what's your big goal for 2013? >> wow. my goal is to find some future presidential candidate that maybe threw his cat out the window or something. >> that would be awesome. >> we need a new pet scandal. >> there you go. that was a resolution. >> i think that rode itself out. >> it did, but there are a lot of other pets out there. >> all right. coming up, republican congressman peter king. gail, thank you so much. >> thank you, gail. >> we're going to ask him about his yes vote on the fiscal cliff bill and also about the outrage over the canceled vote on sandy

relief. keep it right here on "morning joe." >> and let's just let this breathe. [ female announcer ] how do you define your moment?

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for google and its ceo, larry page. the new issue of "fortune" explores the big plans on the horizon for the internet giant. >> you know what the kids are also asking? >> what? >> when the hell is andy serwer coming back to "morning joe" and rocking it old school. oh, here he is! i love it! >> andy serwer joins the table. ♪ aww man. [ male announcer ] returns are easy with free pickup from the u.s. postal service. we'll even drop off boxes if you need them. visit usps.com pay, print, and have it picked up for free. any time of year. ♪ nice sweater. thank you. ♪

♪ come take my hand there's only one group to blame for the continued suffering of these innocent victims, the house majority and

their speaker, john boehner. we respond to innocent victims of natural disasters not as republicans or democrats but as americans, or at least we did until last night. last night, the house of representatives failed that most basic test of public service, and they did so with callous indifference to the suffering of the people of my state. i called the speaker four times last night after 11:20, and he did not take my calls. >> welcome back to "morning joe." mark halperin and john heilemann are still with us. and joining the table, managing editor of "fortune" magazine, andy serwer. the new issue is the future issue. we're going to get to that in just a bit. good to have you all at the table. chris christie making it very clear how he felt about what happened. what was wrong with the bill? maybe there was something wrong with it. the new congress that swears in

today will have a pressing issue to deal with in the coming days. hurricane sandy relief. house speaker john boehner now says he will put $60 billion worth of disaster relief bills up for a vote starting on friday. it comes after he put off tuesday night's expected vote triggering widespread outrage from many politicians including fellow republicans who represent some of the hardest-hit states. >> we cannot believe that this cruel knife in the back was delivered to our region. >> i think it's inexcusable that we did not have this vote. >> the federal government doesn't have a role in this? absurd! absolutely absurd! we demand nothing less than we have given the rest of the country, an emergency and disaster means emergency and disaster. >> we've been devastated, and i would hope that the speaker will bring this to the floor as quickly as possible. >> on a political chess board of internal palace intrigue

politics, our people were played last night as a pawn, and that's why people hate washington, d.c. that's why they hate this politics. last night it was my party responsible. both parties can take plenty of responsibility over time, but last night, my party was responsible for this. >> and -- >> 66 days. >> -- like i said before, you have peter king, frank lobiondo, who is a lowkey guy. they're outraged because they have seen the suffering in their state. >> we'll have peter coming up. >> saw the suffering in their state. again, if the speaker would take him to the side and said listen, not going to be able to do it tonight, but we'll do it on thursday or friday, they would have been fine. but he kept saying get back to me, and then he shut congress down. >> right. it's connected to the fiscal cliff debacle in two ways. number one, the fiscal cliff sucked all the air out of the room. there was no room to debate

this, number one. and number two, it became a part of the brinksmanship itself, well, the republicans from certain parts of the country were saying, you know what? how are we going to pay for that? you east coast liberal people. disgusting. >> that was the argument? >> there were both of those things. >> that was the reason why? >> i think there was a little bit of both. >> so they get rolled on the tax issue, but then they stick to their guns on sandy relief when it comes to spending? i mean, is that -- i'm confused. >> well, none of it makes any sense. so there's no reason why you shouldn't be confused. >> all right. >> you know, it just seems strange -- >> if you go out there and look at that stuff, you know -- >> if you're part of a congress that is rolled up $16.5 trillion in national debt, hurricane sandy seems like a strange place to draw a line in the sand. and you say you know what? we're not going to spend ourselves into debt anymore. and we're going to choose one of

the worst natural disasters in recent american history to draw the line and just let these people drop dead. >> and/or we're too busy. that's what happened. >> john boehner and mitch mcconnell -- >> the timing was bizarre. >> boehner and mcconnell are both good at a lot of things. neither of them is a master genius of pr strategy. >> no, they are not. i wonder if these republicans and perhaps democrats that didn't want to pay for an unfunded hurricane relief bill, john heilemann, will feel the same when a new weapons system is brought to their attention, that they're told that they need to support. do you think they will ask for offsets for a new weapons system when the pentagon comes asking for $60 billion over several years? >> i think there's the chance -- the chances of that could be described in a latin phrase, which is de minimis, close to zero. >> it answers itself, does it

not? >> more latin for you. >> yes. >> do the whole show tomorrow in latin. >> loets do et's do it in latin. >> i meant pig latin. >> again, this is one more example of the republicans, again, like you said, mark, just being tone deaf. getting everything wrong. who's in charge of this party? who's in charge of the house? does nobody know how to get their approval ratings above 9% there? >> let's be clear. it's very difficult to go up against any white house from capitol hill if you're the minority party if you don't have a national chairman like a haley barbour or a presidential nominee. and they're making it harder for themselves. the thing with sandy makes it harder for themselves. the way this deal came down makes it harder for themselves. >> the way wayne lapierre responded to the tragic

slaughter of 20 6 and 7-year-olds makes it worse. the fact that not a single national republican came out to discuss this national tragedy that still shakes parents to the core across america. this has not gone away. i was talking to a parent last night who said that he still wakes up in the middle of the night thinking, because he's got a 6-year-old himself, thinking about the last minutes of those children's lives. and as a father, he says it just -- it just shakes him to his core. the republicans, on one of the great tragedies in recent american history, don't say a word for a week because they're waiting for directions from wayne lapierre? an extremist -- >> some of the worst directions you could have ever heard in response to that. >> the tone deafness of this party is stunning. >> isn't it a common denominator being held up by a very small minority? you look at guns and people who

support assault weapons, and then you look at members of the house that held things up. i mean, how is it that in our democracy a minority like that can be so intransigent? >> fear. >> i don't know, but it's killing the republican party. >> fear. >> think about the dynamic that's now being set in play. from the christie thing and some of the other discussions happening. we pointed out that christie is now railing against house republicans as house republicans continue to get more unpopular. and joe, you earlier said they were already planting the seeds to minority status. as house republicans get more unpopular, the sneincentive for national republicans who run for president in 2016 who attack their own party goes up. mark just pointed out, there's no real leadership in the congressional wing of the party. now you have a party in the next four years tearing itself to pieces. >> cannibalism. >> as outside forces attack the inside parts and they're setting themselves up not just to lose majority status in the house in 2014 but setting themselves up to be a weakened, again, a

deeply weakened party going into the next presidential cycle. >> and inside you have eric cantor looking over the shoulder -- and i think it was on the cover of "politico" today -- of john boehner. nobody thinks that eric cantor is going to be a kinder and gentler face for the republican party. you know, there was palace intrigue. there was quiet movement among conservatives to vacate the chair which means they would have voted against john boehner. and if they got more than 16 to vote against john boehner, then the chair is vacated. you need a majority. and they had the votes, people that were willing to vote against john boehner to take him down as speaker, but then they looked around and said, who's going to replace him? and there was nobody to replace him. so john boehner will continue to be speaker of the house. but there is movement afoot. and they had the votes to do it. they just didn't have anybody to replace him. >> but remember, they've got a constituency problem.

a lot of americans care a lot about the second amendment. a lot of americans might want sensible changes in crime control laws but not wholesale changes in the way guns are l regulated. and a handful of congressmen were elected where the president won. they're not a 10% party. they may be a 10% popularity, but they're not a 10% party. >> okay, but when it comes to guns, let's be clear. you know, since i said what i said a few weeks ago, i have been inundated not by liberals, i've been inundated by conservative nra members that have been hunting their whole life. you know, you joke about me being from the upper west side. i've spent 45 years of my life in alabama, in mississippi, in northwest florida, in georgia. that's where all my friends are. baptist churches. they're hunters. my friends are all hunters. i've yet to have one call me up and say oh, joe, you know what?

you know, you can't speak out against assault weapons. or hey joe, you know what? >> it's assault weapons. that's the thing. >> when i take my 6-year-old boy out to teach him how to hunt, i need that clip that's got 30 cop-killer bullets. they're thanking me. you look at the polls. background checks that are an anathema to the nra that would take care of these gun show loopholes, over 80% of americans want tough, stringent background checks on anybody buying a gun. a majority of americans want to get rid of these asinine clips that are used for one thing and one thing only, killing people. they want to get rid of them. those are like big issues even in conservative districts. and as you move forward, you know, a big argumented used to be of the nra, if they take your assault weapons that allow to you mow down 30 people in 5 seconds, next they're coming after your handguns. >> that's the fear, again. >> the problem is with the nra, bad news for the nra, the united

states supreme court in heller in 2009 said this is actually unconstitutional. the federal government can't take away your handguns or your shotguns. you have a second amendment right to keep and bear arms and to protect yourself with a handgun, with a shotgun. but if they want to regulate out these assault weapons, they can do that. there's no -- there's no way the government can take americans' handguns. there's no way they can take their shotguns. that argument is forever taken off the table. unless republicans act so extreme that they keep electing democratic presidents on these fringe issues, and there becomes a fifth member of the supreme court that wants to overturn heller. the greatest risk to the republican party right now, the greatest risk to gun rights, to my right to keep and bear arms, my right to have a pistol, to protect my family, my right to have a shotgun in my house, to protect my family, the greatest

risk to that right is republican extremism trying to protect assault weapon bans, offending middle-class americans and losing the presidency for another eight years and getting enough people appointed to the supreme court to overturn heller and take away that right we americans were finally given, that they finally confirmed that the second amendment meant what the second amendment said. and it's that way and so many issues, mika, our greatest risk as a conservative party are the extremists in our party. we need to get them out of the way so mainstream, low-tax, low-regulation, low-spending, low-debt republicans who want small government are not beaten year after year after year because we're arguing about assault weapons that mow down little children and mow down teenagers in movie theaters and mow down people in malls,

grandmoms and shopping malls. >> the republican response to newtown was disgraceful. >> pathetic, sad. >> it was embarrassing. and you know, the sporesponse t you got to what you said right after it happened, the first thing that came out of your mouth, the response that you got was very similar to the response that you've gotten in the past when we go to capitol hill and talk to leading republican senators and congressmen about afghanistan. >> right. >> behind closed doors, they agree. >> behind closed doors, they go, why are we in afghanistan? >> they're scared. that's right. >> and the same thing behind closed doors, all these big conservative leaders say, i'm with you, joe. i agree. i can't say it publicly, but i'm with you. >> that's got -- that's got to be broken. >> it's got to be broken. you know, the nra made a horrible mistake, wayne lapierre, tone deaf -- >> arm the schools. >> -- after the slaughter of 20 children, he decided to go out and be tone deaf. >> and all you republicans were waiting for him to say that.

yikes! >> the real nra is going to step forward. the nra members across america are going to step forward that believe in heller, that believe in the right to keep and bear arms, that believe they have a right to have a handgun in their home, that believe they have a right to have a shotgun to hunt and also protect their home, they're going to step forward and say, our nra is not an nra that obsesses over people making millions of dollars -- >> fixates. >> -- selling guns, assault weapons to survivalists. let's bring in right now from washington, republican representative from new york, congressman pete king, a guy who actually -- here's another guy, like pete king. here's what i hate about congress. guys like pete king that never speak their mind. >> yeah. >> remember when you told me that i was barefooted, scarborough, what was it, you said scarborough, you know, you just walked out of a tent barefooted in a tent revival in the south. what the hell do you know about congress? >> yeah, something like that. >> we've become good friends since. >> joe, by the way, just so you know, i've got my nd tie on.

it's going to be go irish, crush the tide. >> i'm a little concerned, actually, concerned because the s.e.c. is -- to say underperforming would be an overstatement. >> florida did great last night, joe. >> i know. the s.e.c. is not doing well. lsu lost. notre dame -- you know what? the number's going down as we speak. i'm giving 3 points to notre dame, and that's it. >> you were 5. >> let's talk about a couple things. and i want to talk about sandy, okay? but really quickly, let's talk about sandy hook. really quickly. the tragedy of sandy hook. you heard me talk just a second. i'm not asking you to stake a position here. >> i'd like one. >> but don't you hear from republicans, don't you hear from conservatives, hey, congressman, you know what? do you know what i hear? hey, congressman, you know what? i want a handgun to protect my family. i want a shotgun, but do we really need assault weapons all across america? >> joe, i fully agree with you. i voted for the assault weapon ban back in 1994.

my father was a police officer. i really don't know why people need assault weapons. i'm not a hunter but i understand people want to hunt. i understand people who live in rough neighborhoods or have a small business and want to maintain a pistol to protect themselves as long as they're properly vetted and licensed. but an assault weapon, listen, i'm sure 99% of people with assault weapons are good americans. but to give that potential to a mass murderer who would be able to outarm the police who as we saw could carry out the worst devastation. and i agree with you. as a republican, there are so many issues in the world. joe, we would agree and disagree on others. why the issue of an assault weapon should even be on the table, why we want to identify with that when it's a vocal minority, but it is a minority to support these weapons. >> bless you for saying that. >> in the way of us arguing important issues which is lowering taxes, balancing budgets, doing the things that republicans and conservatives are supposed to be for. let's talk about what happened

the last night of session. it seems that john boehner was talking to you and chris christie and everybody else, saying -- promising you that you were going to get a vote. chris christie said that he played you guys and then broke his word. what exactly happened? >> joe, the last month, i was working with the speaker, with governor cuomo, with mayor bloomberg to get assurance that the sandy aid would be voted on. what john had said it once it came from the senate, it would be voted on. he promised us that. and then during the days leading -- sunday, monday and tuesday, we were working on -- sunday, monday working on legislation. and it was agreed to. it was on the website which basically would have allowed for $60 billion to be voted. and we were told first it would be on tuesday. then they said it might be over

to wednesday morning. late tuesday we started hearing rumors that it might be pulled. it was all the controversy over the fiscal cliff legislation, john felt to have that and then on top of that to be giving $60 billion to new york and new jersey could cause too much of a split in the party. but he didn't tell us that. and he went off the floor tuesday night. and we had to find out from an aide that the bill was pulled. and congress was over. congress has ended, so we have to start all over in the next congress. and i just felt at the time -- and there was nothing planned here, it was impromptu, that we needed a form of shock treatment because we just treated this as another political issue. we didn't get the bill you wanted. it wouldn't have the impact. but this was so vital, my district has been devastated. i have people living in trailers. i have homes that are devastated. i have a woman in my district, she lost two sons in 9/11, now she lost her home. and we can go through so many situations like this. this was literally life and death. that's why i took to the house floor. and that's why yesterday i said some of the things i did. but john is a friend of mine. i like john boehner, and he's

been very good to me, but i felt i had to do it and i had to say it. >> now, you met with him and eric cantor yesterday. how did that go? >> it actually went very well. i knew it was going to be a good meeting when we walked in and john made an obscene reference to me and did it with a smile. >> oh. >> that's a good sign with john. >> that's love, right? >> what's the thing among guys, mika. >> i understand. >> maybe you don't, it's hard to understand us. in any event, that's what it was about. john got right to the point. he said he realized the pressure he put on us, the position he put us in. he explained why he did it, why he made the decision he did. he knew that we disagreed. he said he had spoken to governor cuomo and governor chris 'ttie and mayor bloombergd he said the $60 billion will be voted on. we'll vote on $9 billion tomorrow morning in federal fund insurance. and then on january 15th, which is the first full legislative day, we will vote on the remaining $51 billion. that's all we could ask for. there was no hard feelings in the meeting, no recriminations.

sometimes you can tell there are undercurrents. i had a few like that with newt, but this was nothing like that. this was businesslike and also friendly. in the end as we talked out, john said we're friends and we'll stay friends. >> congressman, i want to ask you to do a little color commentary on speaker boehner. he's not had the best week of his career. is he bothered by criticism on sandy, criticism on the fiscal cliff vote? >> i think he feels that there's so much coming at him. the fiscal cliff vote, john, i voted for it. and i think it was the right thing to do. i know how tough a vote that was for john and the fact that a majority of the conference didn't vote for it, that there was such vehement opposition to it, and yet he felt that he had to bring it to the floor and allow a vote and vote for it. there was tremendous flak coming at him for that, from within the party. and then on top of that, you have the whole sandy issue. i think sandy, he understood more.

and i think that seeing him on tuesday night, i mean, we were chasing him around the floor trying to get a commitment to have the vote on sandy. but at the same time, he's trying to line up votes or he's trying to find out how the vote is going to go on the fiscal cliff. so it was a rough time. being a speaker today is no bargain, i'll tell you. >> congressman peter king, thank you. >> thank you. and joe, go irish. >> roll tide, baby. roll tide. >> he's going. andy, stay with us if you can. congressman, thank you. coming up, what's inside america's banks? our next guest takes a look behind the curtain at one institution's financial records, revealing why there is still so little public trust. you're watching "morning joe" brewed by starbucks. keep my eye on her... but, i didn't always watch out for myself. with so much noise about health care... i tuned it all out. with unitedhealthcare, i get information that matters... my individual health profile. not random statistics. they even reward me for addressing my health risks.

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26 past the hour. a live look at times square in new york city on this thursday morning. joining us now, senior reporter for "pro publica," jessie

eisinger, asking, what's inside america's banks? he writes, in part, this. "for the past four years, the nation's political leaders and bankers have made enormous -- in some cases unprecedented -- efforts to save the financial industry, clean up the banks and reform regulation in order to restore trust and confidence in the american financial system. this hasn't worked. banks today are bigger and more opaque than ever, and they continue to behave in many of the same ways they did before the crash." and your article goes on to take a look deep inside one of the nation's largest banks? >> yeah. absolutely. >> and what you found is not going to make any of us feel that comfortable. >> no. it will be terrifying. the point that we have is that it's not just that the average person doesn't trust the banks anymore. we sort of knew that. but our point is that everyone who actually knows something doesn't trust them either. so we're talking about

sophisticated investors, the accounting experts, even bankers themselves, regulators. they don't trust them and they don't trust them because they can't understand their finances. >> you call them a house of cards. tell us the bank you looked into and what you found. >> sure. we did an adventure, sort of dantesque adventure into wells fargo's annual report. wells fargo is a sort of solid american name, an icon. >> sure, yeah. >> we picked it because it's the simplest big bank, the most conservative big bank. and what we found is that the financials are truly incomprehensible. and full of terrifying things like $2.8 trillion worth of derivatives exposure and $1.5 trillion worth of off-balance sheet entities that are similar to what enron was using. >> oh, my god. >> trading profits that are completely opaque and not disclosed particularly accurately. >> how did you do this, first of all? >> we read.

we read the fine print. we read everything in the annual report. and then we talked to experts and said, you know, we can't make heads or tails of this. can you? and they said no. we talked to one of the people who actually creates accounting standards. they said do you trust bank accounting? he said absolutely not. >> oh, my god. andy. >> i read the piece last night. it's really great. a real tour de force. it is scary because when you have a bake like jpmorgan with jamie dimon, the most astute bank ceo and they have a problem with london with a huge loss like that, it truly is scary. i'm wondering at the end, you sort of talk about solutions because you see this huge problem. well, what the hell can we do about it in and where do you come off on that? a lot of people want to separate trading from traditional banking. is that the solution you see? >> those are part of the solution. my co-author and i had sort of two solutions.

one is that bankers have to go to prison. when they are reckless, we have not had a single major banker go to prison in the wake of the financial crisis. and i think there was substantial wrongdoing. so there has to be a real risk ri. but you couple that with an ability to make disclosures. you can create something of a grand bargain here where you swept away a lot of the redundant regulation in exchange for saying you have to disclose your risks in meaningful ways that a sophisticated smart layperson but a layperson nonetheless could understand. >> isn't that what -- the naive question is -- the consumer protection bureau does? where does what the obama administration has put in place to protect consumers square with what you found? >> right. well, what happened was, i increasingly think that the dodd-frank financial reform

which created the cfpb is a failure. and it's been a failure in part because banking lobbying has layered in enormous amount of complexity and exceptions. and you can see this most in the rules called the volcker rule which was to try to ban proprietary trading where banks take bets with their own money and taxpayers take the down side. and right now there are exemptions that you can drive huge semis through, and it rendered the rules meaningless. and instead what we have is layers and layers and layers of complexity. the regulators, unfortunately, are smart. we think of them as sort of government bureaucrats, but in fact, they're very smart, and they're too smart for their own good. so what they do is they think that they can anticipate all these banks' problems and try to allow certain things but exempt other things. and they can't do that that well. >> yeah. you have those -- the more rules, the easier it is actually

for banks to circumvent them. one of the themes of this morning's program is a minority that's able to block the greater good. >> exactly. >> so you have all these people now who say that this is a real problem, that banks should be broken up, for instance. bank ceos themselves, some of them, or at least former ones. who is it that's blocking it, and how are they able to do it? >> i think the current banks don't want to do it because opacity helps their businesses and trading. these guys are increasingly trading. and trading is a zero-sum game. i win, you lose. lending is a win-win game. i get money when you do well. and so as you move to trading, you have an interest both in covering up your actions, disclosing less, and in treating your customer like they're a mark. and so they're benefiting. and then, of course, accountants and lobbyists and lawyers who advise the banks.

>> before you go, bring us to the consumer. >> sure. >> and how they are impacted by what you found. >> so there are two problems in the crisis of trust. one is that they're a drag on the economy. banks are the transmission mechanism for lending. >> for everything. >> right now in the mortgage market, we actually have price gouging. everything thinks that mortgage rates are really low. but in fact, they're not as low as they should be because they're controlled by a very few number, wells and jpmorgan essentially control the market while citi and bank of america are withdrawing. they're withdrawing because their own bank executives don't trust their banks, don't understand what's inside their banks. and they've lost kind of confidence. >> so the consumer will not get -- >> so the consumer is not getting enough of a break. the consumer is paying too much on their mortgage. even though you think you're paying a low rate, you're not paying the property rate, and that means you have less money in your pocket to spend, which is a drag on all of us because the economy -- the economy has got this sort of weight behind it. the second problem is that

there's dry rot in the foundation and the least wind will blow a bank down, and that could be a big crisis. >> okay. this is a must-read. "what's inside america's banks?" great work. jesse eisinger, thank you so much for coming in. come back soon. we really appreciate it. coming up, andy takes us back to the future inside "fortune's" new future issue. we'll be right back. [ man ] visa prepaid opened a new world for me. ♪ i have direct deposit on my visa prepaid. my paycheck is loaded right on my card. automatic. i am not going downtown standing in line to cash it. i know where my money is, because it is in my pocket. i got more time with my daughter, we got places to go. [ freeman ] go open a new world, with visa prepaid. more people go with visa.

we'll talk about spongebob after we get off the air. andy serwer is going to talk about the new issue of "fortune." you have will.i.am on the cover. >> he's an impresario. >> what does one have to do? >> you are a futurist. >> you are a futurist. you should be in there. >> he works with companies like coca-cola and intel developing new products. >> okay. >> he helped coca-cola develop a new line of clothing using recycled plastic bottles. >> oh, that feels comfortable. >> excuse me? >> invented a robot. >> it's the caps. >> patagonia does that, too. we have stuff in here about

google. >> so larry page. >> are they the future or the past? >> we thought they were kind of slipping, and now it really appears that they're moving forward very quickly. >> how so? >> well, the android system is making big inroads. a lot of us use iphones, but the android system for droids has really leaped ahead in many ways. >> so mark halperin, you're an apple guy. have you ever thought about maybe trying an android or trying -- microsoft has a couple of new products out. >> the surface. >> i've played with them all. >> microsoft surface is out. >> the google one, actually it's pretty good. where it integrates with other google things. you know, the whole thing is about dominating hardware and software. >> search, droid, gmail, using youtube, maps, all that stuff that they do, chrome. >> you go onto the new maps apps -- >> apple. >> on apple or on droid, the g-maps are the same on all of them. you can go to some store, you

hit it on the map, it tells you where you store is. then you get pictures inside the store, all the reviews. yelp, out of business. 12 months from now, it will be gone. it's all integrated. they're eating the world and sucking everything into their ecosystem. >> and that's a little scary. they've got thousands and thousands of people making these things better. and they're making things better all the time. you see maps, but maps six months ago is very different from maps today. >> get back to me when they've invented a robot. >> they're doing it. there's a lot of new machines we're talking about in this issue. robotic surgery, droids and also drones, excuse me, not droids, drones. commercial drones. >> let's talk about intel, a company that's always fascinated me because we heard in the late '80s that the japanese were going to dominate the super-computer chip market forever. that we were flat on our back. intel came and just created a revolution. are they the future?

are they still on the cutting edge? >> well, intel has a lot of prowess and a lot of power in ordinary computing chips. but they're trying to catch up in mobile computing. and the whole future in commuticommute i computing is mobile. tri they're trying to get there and making inroads, but they've got their work cut out for them. >> they're closely tied to microsoft. >> what is surface? i'm hearing a lot about this. what is surface? >> they're trying to take their dominance in the operating system and move it to a full-blown computer rather than a mini-computer on a tablet, something that's both your tablet and with a keyboard, your laptop. >> futurist. >> there is a futurist right there. >> so it's very light and portable. >> it runs all of your microsoft programs. so if you're not an apple person and you're wedded to microsoft -- >> and look how light it is. it looks really functional. >> it has some cool things. it has some cool things to it. >> the microsoft mobile is

pretty snazzy. >> the microsoft mobile. >> it's pretty snazzy. >> the new issue of "fortune" is "the future issue." andy, thank you very much. >> thank you. when we come back, more from the newsstand. our exclusive first look at the new cover of "time" magazine. keep it right here on "morning joe."

♪ last night ♪ she said 45 past the hour. joining us now, assistant managing editor for "time" magazine, rana foroohar here to reveal the latest issue. it is, rana? >> it is an article by kate

pickert which i'm very proud of, i'm proud for her. it's a piece on how 40 years after roe v. wade, the pro-choice movement is losing ground, particularly at a state level. it's a really interesting, very nuanced piece about this debate which affects a huge number of women in america. by the time they're 45, 1 in 3 women in america will have an abortion. but it's arguably harder than it ever has been to get one in many states. there are actually four states that have only one abortion clinic. >> what four states are those? >> that's north and south dakota, mississippi and alabama. and it's very interesting because the pro-choice movement according to kate has actually lost out strategically to the pro-life movement because they have focused on restricting abortion at the state level. so in 2011, pro-lifers working with conservative house republicans in many cases actually passed 92 laws restricting abortion in a variety of ways.

so that could include everything from 24-hour waiting periods that make it very difficult, for example, for a poor woman who has to travel and stay in a hotel to get an abortion, to arcane laws about how clinics are built, how wide the hallways have to be. now, kate would argue that the pro-choice movement has actually dropped the ball themselves in a lot of ways by focusing too much on the needs of middle-class white women and not enough on younger women, on women of color, on poor women. so it's a really interesting look at where we stand on this issue 40 years on. >> when you look into the why of this, do you look into the fact that there are, if you get outside of new york city and major urban centers, there's a different point of view about this. that it's pro-life. >> that's absolutely true. you know, while most americans do believe abortion should be legal, most americans also favor some kind of restrictions on abortion, be it a ban on partial birth, parental consent laws, waiting periods. so there is a nuanced debate that i think kate feels that the

pro-choice movement has not stayed up with. >> go ahead. >> i'm just -- it's fascinating that americans seem to be -- we were talking about guns before. >> yeah. >> we were talking about the heller case a few years ago that said yes, you have a right to possess a gun in your house to protect your family, but the state has a right -- >> right. >> -- to regulate it almost any way they choose. >> absolutely. >> you go back to the language in roe v. wade. they give the right to have an abortion, but especially after the first trimester, in essence, turns it over to the states to decide how they want to regulate and say, the right to an abortion, and they say it several times, blackmon wrote it several times, it is not an absolute right. we're just saying that you have a right to an abortion, and the state has a right to regulate. >> absolutely. you can see that on a state-by-state basis. as i say, four states with only one clinic, many with a few, a handful. and a variety of laws from state

to state. now, i think that kate would say that if the pro-choice movement had been a little more e expansive, perhaps moving their mandate into reproductive rights around access to contraception, access to health care for poor women, that they could have been a little more successful in moving their agenda forward. >> you know, they do realize, though, none of this happens in a vacuum. and you look at the polls that show americans are becoming more, quote, pro-life every year. and i remember when kate, when we were expecting kate, i remember looking at the 3-d imagery. >> yeah, technology has a lot to do with this. >> identify got two older boys, and i remember seeing kate for the first time. and when they did the ultrasound, and i just gasped. >> yeah. >> by the way, i look at jack now. and the arch of jack's nose nose, i picked up in the first ultrasound.

and every time i see that arch, i'm like, oh, miieieied god, i that early on. speaking of technology, jack was born two-and-a-half months premature. technology has changed and it does not break in the pro choice direction. it's true. and so many things in politics. bill clinton had what was really the genius formulation from the pro -- what should have been the widely embraced pro choice position, which was safe, legal and rare. and for a lot of pro choice people, what they heard was, safe and legal. they didn't hear the rare part. and for centrist new democrats, the rare thing was almost as important. and so it was -- for the political -- >> yeah. >> ballast, focus on adoption, because that is important for maintaining a broad support. >> i remember donna brazile

after the -- was it the 2004 election, writing an op-ed and talking about what the democrats were having problems -- she said i went home, very democratic family, never voted republican. and i'm sitting around the kitchen table, and they're all asking me, why are you the party of abortions? >> yeah. >> well, and that really goes to the heart of this, which is it's hard when your mandate is to advocate for something that most people are very uncomfortable with, and that you would never really want to have. >> right. >> amazing. >> i just say -- i know that sounded harsh. donna brazile wrote that, i'm just going back to what bill clinton said, they've got to be more effective. >> you don't want to be the party of abortion on demand. you want to be -- to maintain a broad support for the right to abortion, it makes a lot of political sense to be arguing for let's have as few as possible, because that's where most of the country is. they want it to be a right, but they want it to have as few as possible, because most people regard it as a tragedy and awful thing. >> and talking about another social issue we've been talking

about, just like the republicans don't want to be the party of bushmasters, assault weapons. >> yes. >> high-capacity clips. democrats don't want to be the party of abortion on demand. >> and republicans have to find their way to the safe, legal and rare of gun control. because that's the right place to be. that's a great point. >> really. i'm reading the article and you phrase it around -- >> it's a wonderful color piece. kate spent a lot of time at one of these clinics. and it's just a great example of what you can do when you have a few months to really report something and dig into a topic. >> that's always good. >> always a good thing. >> the new cover of "time" is on the 40th anniversary of roe v. wade. thank you so much. coming up, dick wolf, the man behind the "law and order" and "miami vice" franchises will be here to talk about his debut novel. we'll be right back. [ woman ] ring. ring. progresso. i just served my mother-in-law your chicken noodle soup but she loved it so much... i told her it was homemade.

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♪ tomorrow on "morning joe," we're going to be down in washington for the swearing in today of the new congress, and we'll have a big lineup. >> very excited about that. >> newt gingrich, retiring congressman, barney frank, award winning journalist bob woodward and cokie roberts. >> we're jamming it tomorrow. just for tomorrow. into one super-packed -- >> commercial-free, sponsored by chevron. >> up next this morning, the

auto pen in action. the fiscal cliff legislation is now law, thanks to the auto pen. >> yeah. >> why did the markets love the deal so much. "mad money"'s jim cramer rejoins the conversation, straight ahead. >> he's mad. he is mad.

♪ i've got nothing to say good morning, it's 8:00 on the east coast. 5:00 a.m. on the west coast. time to get up, everybody, get to work.

a look at new york city. >> beautiful. >> we've got mark halperin. >> he's beautiful. >> john heilemann. so far, so good. and jim cramer. >> jim cramer is great. he's mad, though. mad about money. >> ah, okay. well, i'm going to get to the news, which is going to start in -- >> is this chris christie? >> no, we're doing that later. >> peter king. >> seriously? >> why aren't we starting there? >> i tried to bring it up several times yesterday, but apparently you need lawmakers ranting and just railing against congress in order to cover it. i was horrified yesterday. >> i thought chris christie gave -- >> now you're horrified because chris christie is horrified. great. >> quite -- >> we'll get there. but first, president obama has signed into law -- >> with bottle rockets and smoke bombs. >> and i want to hear from grover norquist, because this logic is fantastic. passed by congress that raises taxes for the higher earners. extends tax cuts for the middle class and unemployment benefits for many americans.

the president reviewed a copy of the bill while vacationing in hawaii before directing it to be signed by autopen. that's the signature machine that presidents sometimes use to sign legislation while away from washington. far from a bipartisan -- >> it was a historic moment. >> look at this. >> he wanted to capture it. it was special. >> okay. back at the capitol. >> thinking about signing civil rights legislation with his hands and then he decided, use the autopen. looks better for the history books, mark halperin. >> they used the robot on the jettisons. >> there are several major issues. >> rosie, by the way, alex tells me -- >> awaiting the president's return, including the impending fight over the debt ceiling. meanwhile, anti tax leader grover norquist sat down with andrea mitchell where hein insisted that they did not in fact vote to increase taxes. >> no republican voted for a tax increase. what happened was obama had the

sort of dam aclays over the heads of the american people with a $5 trillion tax increase over the next decade that would happen automatically. republicans are quite clear. they want the tax cuts extended for everyone. the president is just not taking them away from some people. that will hurt the economy. he got his tax increase. but he can't claim republican fingerprints on his tax increase. >> well, wait a second. i mean, we're not living in the "alice in wonderland" world here. there is a tax increase for wealthier americans. it's literally a tax increase. rates are up. >> what happened yesterday was that all the tax rates went up, and then the republicans and the congress together took them down for some people, not for everybody. >> speaker john boehner, meanwhile, he -- >> got to stop there. come on. >> fine. >> what world does he live in? >> i don't know. someone tell me. >> john, i guess -- i know grover, i've always liked grover, you know. >> how do you believe someone

like that? it is what it is when he wants it to be what it is. and then when it isn't, then he changes. >> they got rolled. what do you think -- republicans wanted to vote to raise taxes and have $1 million level. they got rolled. grover got rolled. >> they didn't just get rolled. >> they got destroyed. >> the whole fundamental premise of grover norquist's ideological and political life was undermined and collapsed at his feet. not very many people when that happens to them say, hey, look, the last 20 years of my life in rubble at my toes. they figure out some way to explain why -- >> it is what it is? >> hasn't fallen apart. but it's pretty obvious what the reality is. >> i know i bumped into you guys, we were at the ritz-carlton and we said this is the end. grover, he's finished. if you've got to go over the cliff, the rates went up, he would be able to claim for his people that they didn't do things wrong. now he will not launch tea party assaults on these primaries. >> what?

>> that's right. he won't. that's what he was threatening. tea party two. >> i think he made the best of it. >> thank you. that's all i'm saying. he made the best of it. i liked it. i thought it was funny. >> funny. >> i thought -- devastating for the republican party. i think most conservatives thought it was a devastating day for conservative movement. charles kraut hammer agreed. he called it a rout, immediately. said it was a devastating blow for the conservative movement. >> that seems like a more honest characterization of what happened. >> yeah, there is no way to spin this, other than a huge loss. >> well, there's actually something simpler, which is to say republicans voted to raise taxes. >> yes, they did. >> whatever you want to say. whatever the meaning is for the conservative movement the, you can't pretend they didn't vote to raise taxes. >> i will give you the chris christie story now. >> in 3, 2, 1, go. >> the new congress that swears in today will have another issue

to deal with in the coming days. hurricane sandy relief. house speaker john boehner now says he will put $60 billion worth of disaster relief bills up for vote starting friday. >> are we paying for it? >> uh-huh. >> good. >> it comes after he put off tuesday night's expected vote, triggering widespread outrage from many politicians, including fellow republicans who represent some of the hardest-hit states. >> we cannot believe that this cruel knife in the back was delivered to our region. >> i think it's inexcusable that we did not have this vote. >> the federal government doesn't have a role in this? absurd! absolutely absurd. we demand nothing less than we have given the rest of the country. an emergency and disaster means an emergency and disaster. >> we have been devastated. and i hope the speaker will bring this to the floor as quickly as possible. >> and by the way, mika, just a little background. guys like frank lobe ando, chris

smith, they're soft-spoken, good, decent men. when you hear them go to the floor like that -- and by the way, peter just yells, but he's also a great guy. but when they go to the floor like that, you can tell -- >> something bad has happened. >> they're speaking for hurt constituents. they have seen the horrors. you know, that their constituents have been living through. and frank -- i've known frank since '94. i don't think i've ever heard him raise his voice. >> do we need to review what happened? >> yeah, i think we do. you know, they were all chasing john boehner around. to make sure this relief got put into place, and boehner kept saying, don't talk to me now. don't talk to me now. wait until after the fiscal cliff deal is done. i'm worried about that. and then we'll take it up after that. chris christie, we have the chris christie press conference, where he promised chris that, you know, pick up a phone. you call and lobby the members and i'll take care of it. and then he got his vote, shut

down the house. the that was it. and they -- everybody feels like john boehner did not tell them the truth. >> so here's chris christie yesterday, as well. >> there's only one group to blame for the continued suffering of these innocent victims. the house majority and their speaker, john boehner. we respond to innocent victims of natural disasters, not as republicans or democrats, but as americans. or at least we did, until last night. last night, the house of representatives failed that most basic test of public service. and they did so with callous indifference to the suffering of the people of my state. i called the speaker four times last night after 11:20, and he did not take my calls. on a political chess board of internal politics, our people were played last night as a pawn. and that's why people hate

washington, d.c. that's why they hate this politics. last night it was my party responsible. both parties could take plenty of responsibility over time. but last night, my party was responsible for this. new jersians and new yorkers are tired of being treated like second-class citizens. 66 days and counting. shame on you. shame on congress. this used to be something that was not political. you know, disaster relief was something that you didn't play games with. but now in this current atmosphere, everything is the subject of one ups manship, a possibility, potential bait for the political game. and it's just -- it is why the american people hate congress. >> wow. governor christie pointed out, it's been 66 days since hurricane sandy struck. by comparison, in it 2005, it

took congress only ten days to get a $52 billion katrina relief package to president bush's desk. >> that's amazing. i mean, that was an amazing press conference, mika. >> yeah, it was. and to me, it was just absolutely ludicrous that these people are left waiting even another second. i don't understand it. so i don't blame them. >> i don't either. >> it's -- obviously, an outrage on the substance. and i don't mean in any way to denigrate chris christie's obviously heartfelt views about this. but, man, as a political manner, john boehner's christmas present to chris christie is this thing. every moment, joe, you were just saying when we were off-air, every moment that christie was speaking his approval rating was going up in new jersey a point every 60 seconds. >> and by the way, he started at 72%. >> yes. not much further for him to go. and nationally, i mean -- again, chris christie, 2016, it's not a

bad place to be, to be in opposition to a congressional republican party. i'm saying, even within the republican party. >> right. >> the congressional republican party that is crumbling. >> at 9% -- >> extreme. >> in the general and even in the eyes of the conservative base for the reasons we've been talking about. >> very early on, mark halperin, in september, early september, coming out of the convention, i said, this is, you know -- big trouble for mitt romney. i was just saying, nobody else had said it. i could just tell. he was in big trouble. and some other people followed after that. i remember in 2005 telling a friend, don't run for congress in 2006. it's going to be a bad year for republicans. he laughed, because it's a little early, isn't it? he said no. it's just -- don't run -- he didn't listen to me. he got 31%. i will tell you, the seeds are being planted right now for the destruction of the house

republican majority. they're being planted -- >> we haven't even talked about guns. >> they are sworn in today. we haven't even talked about sandy hook. we haven't talked about -- >> think about that. >> being wrapped as the party of wayne lapierre instead of the party of ronald reagan. the extremism that is going to be wrapped around this party. they start -- the men and women being sworn in today start behind the 8-ball. they are already on their way to making nancy pelosi the next speaker of the house. they better -- just like i said with romney in september, they better turn this ship around quickly, or we're going to have a democratic monopoly in washington, d.c. on january the 4th, 2015. >> as we say in tv, joe, that's exactly right, joe. it's possible -- >> you're absolutely right. >> it's possible they can turn it around. but if you're talking about leadership -- >> of course they can turn it around. >> leadership within congress or a governor or someone who is

thinking of running for president in 2016, it is easy politicly to kick the republican congress, easy shots like chris christie took. but there's also a substantive case to make. and you can elevate yourself so high, sky-high. if you're bobby jindal or chris christie or jeb bush or anyone else who wants to critique the party, not taking a gratuitous shot but saying here's what's wrong with my party now. >> they're the answer to your column, "crazy doesn't win" but there's still elements of crazy. sorry. >> scott garety, happens to be a congressman from cnbc. and i said, what are you going to do about sandy. and he said no accountability issue. this is a jersey congressman. accountability issue. accountability. i have friends whose houses are now a mile below where they were, destroyed on a river. you're talking about accountability. he said, yes, what really matters, we need accountability. and i'm thinking, will you please fly over long beach island, joker? sorry, i didn't mean joker. i meant congressional joker.

>> yeah. >> how many of my friends are down there looking for their houses, hope to find their houses. i have friends in the business of demolition and the national guard floois guys from louisiana were making it so you can only have one truck at a time, because they were so afraid, there were no roads. that's called infrastructure. that's not second homes. it's infrastructure to get the first homes from people who aren't that rich and don't need fema. they need rebuild. >> right. a lot of times, mika, we talk about what politicians do wrong. and unfortunately, so many politicians do things wrong. let's talk about a politician who has done everything right. chris christie comes to this show, he's got a 32% approval rating after he is sworn in as governor. because he's going after the teachers' unions to try to make them more accountable to teaching children. to make it about children instead of jobs. we ask him off the air, what are you going to do? you've got -- he said, i don't care. i'm going to keep doing what's

right. and if i'm one-term governor, i don't care. and you know, we know chris. he meant it. he really didn't care. he took them on, he won. he won so much that they now are coming to him, and they're reforming schools in newark together. he did the right thing on the budget. he became good friends with the democrats that run the senate. >> yeah. >> he did the right thing. >> he's worried -- >> about sandy. >> he's more worried about medicare not paying off? social security not paying off? >> he's also worried, mika, about his residence. so when president obama comes to help, he goes there and welcomes him. i mean, this guy does the right thing. and he's got approval rating in the mid 70s. >> and doesn't make it look difficult, which for some reason -- for some members of the republican party, it is hard to do the right thing. it really is. coming up, the inside story of how so-called soldier scholars like general david petraeus reshape the american military. and change the way we fight our

wars. author and military journalist, fred kaplan, joins us next. and in a few minutes, "law and order" creator, dick wolf, will be here to discuss his latest project. but first, bill karins with a check on the forecast. >> good morning to you. as far as what we're dealing with, mika and joe, as we go throughout this next period, looks like we're going to warm up. we have really hit the max cold around the country for this latest outbreak. new england has been brutal this morning, though. let me show you this. negative 27 wind chill in greenville, maine. that's crazy. caribou at minus 15. so we have bitterly cold air this morning from about connecticut northward. everyone else is going to slowly begin to warm up. in the southeast, a little travel trouble, rain on i-10 from mobile to pensacola, panama city through southern georgia in the areas of southern portions of south carolina. but otherwise, it's a very quiet weather day across the country. and the big question, is this the coldest week of winter. and it looks like we're going to have a significant warmup across the country come next week at this time.

so if you've been really complaining about the bitter cold, things will begin to improve. a little bit of light rain showers in orlando. but overall, much of the country very cold, and also looking very dry. you're watching "morning joe." we're brewed by starbucks. [ male announcer ] where do you turn for legal matters? maybe you want to incorporate a business. or protect your family with a will or living trust. and you'd like the help of an attorney. at legalzoom a legal plan attorney is available in most states with every personalized document to answer questions. get started at legalzoom.com today. and now you're protected.

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live look at times square. welcome back to "morning joe" at 21 past the hour.

joining us now, pulitzer prize winning journalist, fred kaplan. he's out with the new book "the insurgents" the plot to change the american way of war. great to have you on the show. >> thanks. >> david petraeus, a military revolutionary, wasn't he? he has changed the way we fight wars. >> true. before he was commander in iraq, the army officially considered wars to be large, set pieces, tank on tank. and the kinds of wars that he fought in iraq and afghanistan, they referred to them officially as military operations other than war. they weren't wars. it was called mootwa, and chairman of the joint chiefs of staff said we don't do that. >> the first draft of history suggests we worked very well in iraq, not quite as well in afghanistan. >> well, i think you can say it worked tactically in iraq and

not at all well in afghanistan. >> right. >> the thing about afghanistan, there's a book that he was highly influenced by, by a french colonel named david galula, and there was one chapter that said conditions that favor the insurgency. and if you looked at each one of the conditions, it was afghanistan. corrupt government, illiterate population, a neighboring country that serves as sanctuaries. there was no way that counterinsurgency could have succeeded. >> and taking this theme of real men forward, one more step, real men's military strategies are not influenced by french colonels. >> well, you know -- actually, the french colonels did quite a bit. >> exactly. >> you might have a point there. >> yeah, i know, i'm joking. >> so general petraeus is obviously a guy who had a huge run to the top. >> yes. >> what accounts for that? intellect? >> huge run to the top? it's interesting. among a lot of army generals at the time, he was kind of desp e

despised. generals in the day did not really like officers who were either bookish or who stood out. and petraeus was very guilty on both charges. he had to maneuver his way to the top. he was very good at dealing with bureaucracies. in fact, you know, i've never met an unassuming four-star general. but david petraeus was more assuming than most. a lot of his great successes were things that he did on his own, without telling anybody in washington. for example, when he was in charge of the occupation in northern iraq, which was his greatest success, there was no command structure in iraq. he basically set up elections, vetted the candidates, rejiggered the economy, opens borders with syria, all on his own. when he set up the sons of iraq in western iraq where he paid middletons who had been firing at us two weeks earlier to come join our side, he paid them out

of his commander's discretionary fund without telling anybody in washington. >> he also had no problem working around superiors inside the pentagon when george bush was trying to curry favor, something that's rarely done. >> right, the secretary of democra defense rumsfeld barred the use of the word insurgency because he knew that would mean counterinsurgency which means you would have to put in more troops for a longer period of time. he developed back channels to the white house where he had intelligence flows going back and forth. he and his friends, there was a private study about the surge, they maneuvered for that surge study to be inserted into the white house deliberations. the thing that even i didn't realize until i started researching this book is how his fingerprints behind and in front of the scenes were all over everything that happened. he and his entourage of fellow graduates of the social science department at west point. and i call it the plot, to

change the american way of war. i mean, they called themselves a a kabal or west point mafia. plots needn't be nephew arrestous. sometimes to get things done you have to have a plot. >> so this just came out, right? >> yes. >> when did it go to print, the prohibiting printing press? >> are you asking about paula broad well? >> before or after? >> i was able to tack on a little bit of the end and weave it into the themes of the book. >> far into your working on this book that story broke. >> i was done writing this, actually. >> you were done. >> yeah. >> gosh, what was your reaction? >> well, on the one hand, i was surpris surprised. on the other hand, as i said, this was a guy who was accustomed to making his own rules. it is kind of shocking, because this went against his own personal code, against the military code of justice. adultery is a crime in the military code of justice.

you can theoretically get court martialed or lose a star for this. i think it was a shock, but it also in retrospect wasn't that surprising, given the mode of operandi that he had in a lot of other issues. also, paula broadwell, she would come up through west point, was a paratrooper, had parachute training. was a physical fitness freak. he would have initially been attracted to her, even if he had been the dowdiest boy coming out of west point. and obviously, things went in another direction. but you add up several things together, it's not as surprising as it might have seemed. >> following up on that, one of the things after the story came out, the broadwell story, a lot of journalists, and forgive me, you may have written something like this, i don't know. but a lot of journalists who covered him wrote kind of -- renlding their garments and kind of saying one of the ways he rose to the top was by cultivating journalists in a

very calculating and successful way. so what -- how much does that play into mark's question about how much did that matter, the myth-making that he himself engineered? >> it mattered a great deal. some of his mentors coming up the ranks instructed him in the art of cultivating a myth about yourself. now, the myth can have some basis in truth. it's not necessarily all fiction. but you cultivate a myth so you earn the loyalty of your underlings, and get buy-in for your mission. he was very big on buy-in. he set up this big conference at le leavenworth to vet and approve this field manual he had written. a field manual had already been written. the idea was to bring in lots of people from different factions to get the thing actually in place in the bureaucracy, in the military bureaucracy to, get it actually followed. he would set up advisory panels in iraq.

same thing. it was all to get political buy-in. he called it information operations. he was very big -- first he liked talking with reporters. just generally. but he also saw this as a way of furthering the mission. winning hearts and minds isn't just winning iraqi hearts and minds. it's also winning hearts and minds of the homefront. >> well, he did that. the book is "the insurgents: david petraeus and the thought to change the way of the american war." thank you so much. >> greatly appreciate it. >> i appreciate tootoo. >> coming up, the creator of "law and order," dick wolf takes us inside his debut novel, next on "morning joe."

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just hit the news. >> yeah, amazing video. the secretly taped footage called ceo of luscious grape, a well regarded manhattan liquor distributor, verbally and physically harassing the company cfo, ellen sayslin found dead in her apartment. >> msnbc received this package apparently sent by the victim herself -- >> must have mailed that after her dinner with annette. >> well, well, well, the chunk mouse finally roared.

>> tv is not the only place it hit. it's all over the internet. >> we were on "law and order." >> like years ago -- wearing the same sweater. >> yes, you are. you haven't taken it off since. >> we were surprised, people. it's evolution, not revolution. >> walk away -- >> very excited to have dick wolf here. >> look at this. >> and we just heard the bank story -- this is fascinating, the back story must be told and we'll tell it now. >> emmy award winning writer, producer, creator of the "law and order" tv franchise, the legendary dick wolf. he's out with his debut novel, "the intercept." and this is a remarkable story. you were going to do something on terrorism. >> well -- >> and on september 11th, the front page of "variety" had a very fascinating story. >> had a story saying wolf brings terror to nbc and was announcing a five-hour mini

series that was about a terrorist attack in new york. and we watched the -- watched the planes go into the trade towers, because that was one of the locations they were scouting or might have been scouting that day. but it was pretty weird, because the opening of the mini series was an al qaeda training camp in afghanistan with a bunch of 10-year-old's saying "god is great, death to america," the brother of one of them coming in, because he was going to new york to become a great hero for his people, cut to him and three other guys driving across the canadian border, going into manhattan, setting off a bomb under the shuttle, killing 3,500 people and then releasing anthrax. >> okay. >> so needless to say, we plugged the plug -- >> you scrapped that project. >> it seemed fantastical then. >> the theme obviously stayed with you, and here we are 11 years later. and you -- you tell a story

about terror. >> well, it's -- another planned attack that is disguised pretty well through most of the book. there are a string of suspects. but it's very much in the feeling of day of the jackel, which is not only one of my favorite books, but also favorite movies and has very much the same thesis of an attack that people know is coming and how do you stop it. >> right. mark halperin. >> so you've had a fair amount of success in other medium. >> a fair amount. >> just a fair amount. >> writing a novel ain't easy. what's in it for you to sit down and play in this realm of less glitz? >> well, because i think when -- in my era, when you were growing up with great ambition, was to write the great american novel. this is not the great american novel, it's a pretty good thriller, i think. and a page-turner.

but it was too big a story to me to do this character, jeremy fisk, who i do like a great deal. it was too big a story to do as a tv series. you can't do terrorism every week. and there are no mini series being produced anymore. and movies are, you know, hurry-up and wait forever. i've done those. and i did one that took 11 years to get made and then made 11 cents. so -- >> not a great ratio. >> not a great ratio. it's like way below minimum wage. but this was an opportunity to do something on what i think is a pretty big canvas and do it fairly convincingly, because i have had connections in that community for a long time. >> so you had never written a book before. >> no. >> never written a novel before. >> never written a novel. never written a nonfiction book. >> and now you already finished this book and published, and on

to the second book. >> definitely on to the second one, which is narco terrorism. >> so jeremy fisk will live again. >> i hope so. >> you think of him as jack ryan in the clancy books. >> i hate to say yes you've hit it on the head. when i was first thinking about this, that was one of the models, again, that i used. because obviously, the hallmark of clancy novels is good trade craft. and i think the trade craft is pretty good in this. >> so how do you find the difference in tempo in your life? television is such a collaborative thing. and working with this huge team of people, writing a novel, solitary work. you're at home in front of the computer screen. how have you found that transition? >> it's both enner aggravating and energizing, i think -- i've got small kids so i'm home a lot. you know, as i said, somebody said, boy, i love all the "law and orders" i said yeah, i write them all, direct them all, score them all. i said this is not a -- there

are literally 150 people involved on every show. you do get to sort of do it without notes until it goes into the publisher and your editor has notes. but it's a very different type of experience. >> so what was the biggest challenge for you? >> what was the -- >> as you got into the book, was there a point where you said this is a lot tougher than i thought it would be. >> it is a lot tougher. my 25-year-old read it, who is pretty smart and said, you know, dad, reads an awful lot like a script. i said -- >> ah. >> that's such a bad observation. i'm a big believer in outlines and structure, and basically, as i've said, it makes the writers on the show crazy, but we get 15-page single space sheets with every scene. so even if it's written in erdu, it can be rewritten in the story works. it was really important for me

to have the whole thing sort of laid out before any writing started. >> did you make your deadline? >> yeah. >> interesting. >> don't look at me on deadline. so you said something fascinating. there have been many people in hollywood that have lost a lot of money by taking the cameras out into the field before they finished. finished the script, figured out how it ended. has that always been your rule, before we roll the first bit of tape, i know how this story ends? >> you have to. of i mean, and especially in episod episodic. you can't go out there in eight days and be sort of trying to find the story. a., it's too expensive. and b., you wouldn't make air dates. it's -- it's a world of deadlines, especially in television. and they are unforgiving. >> are you surprised, as i think most of us probably are, when we were growing up, everybody --

and ellis andler stanley wrote about this years ago. i thought it was a fascinating observation. in the '70s, everybody would stand around the water cooler and talk about "the godfather". >> or "jaws". >> it was always movies, movies, movies. now my son -- i've got a 25-year-old boy, all of my kids, all of my friends, everybody talks tv. >> well, it's fascinating, because they watch tv completely differently. this is something that is now sort of getting currency that schedules are relatively meaningless. my kids -- again, the 20-year-old was the one who taught me about how kids watch tv now. he said, look -- i said, what are you watching on tv? this was five years ago. he said, i don't watch tv. i said oh, come on. you watch tv. and he said well, yeah, but not when it's on. >> well, you've got to be careful. >> not when it's on.

>> i was at dinner last night, celebrating the 50th birthday of a good friend of mine, dan tully and we were sitting there and two of us wanted to talk about how "homeland" ended and we couldn't, because two others hadn't seen it. how the scene of "doubting abby" ends, i have no idea. it's radically changed. it's individualized. >> really amazing, five years ago he said hey, i download everything. i don't watch it. and i said -- about a year-and-a-half ago, what are you downloading. and he looked at me like i was demented. he said, dad, if it ain't streaming, i ain't watching. why would i want to be tied to a tv set? >> that's exactly how my children watch. >> your son said these books -- the first book read like a tv script. >> my daughter -- >> sorry. do you imagine turning these books into movies? >> listen, nobody has made an offer yet. i think that there is an

opportunity here. if i had my druthers, i wish somebody would make it as a mini series, because i think that as a movie, it's -- in sort of direct competition with a lot of other movies that are in a similar genre. the only thing on television that is really parallel is homeland, which happens to be probably outside of my own, my favorite show. >> are you into claymation? i was into claymation so long ago. >> before claymation. >> yeah, before claymation. >> it was clay. >> it was in the '60s, so you can imagine what the claymation was like. >> saturday mornings. >> fisk and claymation. >> the novel is "the intercept." dick wolf, thank you. >> thank you very much. >> please keep watching "svu" and "chicago fire." >> that was fun. >> go to chicago, we'll get you on "chicago fire." >> let's do that. should we do that? >> all right. we'll do it. coming up next, will the rally

continue on wall street? we'll give a preview of market futures with cnbc's brian sullivan. and make sure -- you've got to buy this book. >> "the intercept". >> go to amazon right now and buy "the intercept." brian sullivan, straight ahead. don't buy anything he says. we'll be right back. mine was earned off vietnam in 1968. over the south pacific in 1943. i got mine in iraq, 2003. usaa auto insurance is often handed down from generation to generation.

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♪ welcome back to "morning joe." business before the joe, brian sullivan is live at the new york stock exchange. how do the latest numbers look, man? >> you know, i'll tell you what. the weekly unemployment claims number was slightly higher than expected. not a big miss there. the key number to focus on this morning is the adp monthly private payroll number. >> i was just -- i was just -- >> blew expectations, guys. 53% above the estimate. 53% above.

>> what was i just telling you, heilmann? >> you were -- >> obsession. >> i was obsessed. what am i obsessed about? >> the adp private payroll. >> and homeland. >> i obsess over this thing. that's all i'm worried about. >> all you talk about. i google it all of the time. i'm sorry, what's it called again? >> adp -- >> big number, guys. futures may be turning around. yesterday, by the way, you had this in the pool, was the single-best trading day ever. the first three-point gain in over a year. nearly every stock in the u.s. equity markets rose. that, my friends, is a heck of a way to start off 2013. 2013, 113th congress being sworn in. and so far, the ball is rolling in the right direction. >> man, i'm excited. >> make him say that thing again. >> say that thing again that's so important. what is it called? the adp what? >> adp, right, which provides payroll services to millions of people around the country.

their monthly jobs number, because the official monthly jobs number, guys, is out tomorrow. this number was 53% above the consensus forecast. if that holds true for tomorrow, could be another cup can he will good days or at least tomorrow could be a great day for the equity markets and show that the job market continues to gain strength. housing is better. we've got auto sales today, we're expecting more than 15 million on an annualized basis. which means more people going back to work in auto manufacturing jobs. which is good news. let's have good news to start out the year, right? >> right. >> i mean, alabama is going to lose monday night, so at least we have good news now. and then tuesday morning, joe won't be that upset. >> oh. notre dame destroys the tide. >> back to you in the studio. >> beware of the jade monkey. >> you see what i just did there? >> yeah. >> does he have an earpiece in? it was a blind throw.

jn

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is this a good one? >> oh, this is the best. i read the review. it's the best ever on planet earth. it got -- that's what the review said. >> no, the guy at new season said it was great. >> we watched "breaking bad" last night. >> oh, god, no spoilers. we haven't watched it yet, we tivoeded it. >> finished the first season. >> the best television i've ever seen. >> spoiler alert. stop. >> that's a give-away. >> we'll talk about it behind your back.

>> first of all, what kind of show is it, season two? >> stop. >> i'm not saying anything. all i'm saying, wasn't it cool the way it went down. >> so are you guys watching "game of thrones", whose king? >> so good. >> are you guys watching -- >> i had no idea. >> have you seen the new season of "dexter?" ? >> spoiler alert. >> change of subject. >> what about downtown? >> special effects were wonderful. >> okay, what's something weep -- >> "six feet under" we can talk about that. >> spoiler alert. >> why do you have to watch it? >> liz's father is actually darth vader. >> the father and the daughter. >> the character will die eventually. like christopher on "the sopranos." >> i only watched the first episode. >> have you seen "the sixth sense?" >> "boy meets world?" >> you guys miss me off. >> only watched the first three episodes. >> that's your conversation. >> that is. that is --

>> ripped from the headlines. from every dinner party. >> every dinner party. you can't talk about any tv series. >> under one circumstance. >> what's that? >> on to our show, live from washington, former house speaker newt gingrich, barney frank, bob woodward and cokie roberts all join us on the set in washington. >> look at that, murderers' row. kevin spacey -- >> by the way, watch what live so you can talk about it tomorrow night at your dinner party. >> yeah. >> we'll be back. [ man ] ring ring... progresso this reduced sodium soup says it may help lower cholesterol, how does it work? you just have to eat it as part of your heart healthy diet. step 1. eat the soup. all those veggies and beans, that's what may help lower your cholesterol and -- well that's easy [ male announcer ] progresso. you gotta taste this soup. tdd#: 1-800-345-2550 hours can go by before i realize

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on a political chess board of internal politics, our people were played last night as a pawn. and that's why people hate washington, d.c. that's why they hate this politics. last night it was my party responsible. both parties can take plenty of responsibility over time. but last night my party was responsible for this. >> welcome back. "morning joe." chris christie with the strong opinion about the republicans. that guy is kicking it old-school. black keys playing. you have an opinion on them. the critics love them. >> great live band. >> joe ar